Emails with a Wingnut
yesterday on facebook, i had a hilarious, but ultimately sad and frustrating, exchange with a wingnut on health care reform. It was hilarious because wingnuts are SO FUCKING DUMB. It was sad and frustrating for the same reason. Even when the facts were spelled out in giant block letters with crayon, the wingnut could not bring herself to believe anything other than what she had told herself was true. My five-year old son has more intellectual curiosity than a 20-something year old woman. That’s pathetic. So anyway, in order to avoid publicly embarrassing this person, we’ll call her Wingy McWingnut.
Wingy began with this post:
Chuck Norris : Dirty Secret No. 1 in Obamacare – Townhall.com
Source: townhall.com
Health care reforms are turning into health care revolts. Americans are turning up the heat on congressmen in town hall meetings across the U.S. While watching these political hot August…
“Dirty secret No. 1 in Obamacare is about the government’s coming into homes and usurping parental rights over child care and development. ”
Well that didn’t sound right, so I asked,
what page? i’d like to see where exactly that’s listed.
Wingy responded:
It’s outlined in sections 440 and 1904 of the House bill
(Page 838)
So I bopped by open congress and looked up the bill. Here is section 1904, under which subsection 440 falls; it’s rather long, so I will include only the relevant parts (you can read the rest at the link), and boldface certain phrases for emphasis:
SEC. 1904. GRANTS TO STATES FOR QUALITY HOME VISITATION PROGRAMS FOR FAMILIES WITH YOUNG CHILDREN AND FAMILIES EXPECTING CHILDREN.
Part B of title IV of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 621-629i) is amended by adding at the end the following:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink
‘Subpart 3–Support for Quality Home Visitation Programs
‘SEC. 440. HOME VISITATION PROGRAMS FOR FAMILIES WITH YOUNG CHILDREN AND FAMILIES EXPECTING CHILDREN.
‘(a) Purpose- The purpose of this section is to improve the well-being, health, and development of children by enabling the establishment and expansion of high quality programs providing voluntary home visitation for families with young children and families expecting children.
Let’s take a quick break here to point out that Wingy’s belief that the bill “usurp[s] parental rights over child care and development” is rendered moot by the fact that home visitations are VOLUNTARY. No one is forced to do anything. No coercing, no mandate means no usurping. Continuing:
‘(1) DESCRIPTION OF HOME VISITATION PROGRAMS- A description of the high quality programs of home visitation for families with young children and families expecting children that will be supported by a grant made to the State under this section, the outcomes the programs are intended to achieve, and the evidence supporting the effectiveness of the programs.
So rather than the government forcing you to raise your kids as Obama sees fit, this section provides grants to states to provide parenting education to young families. Which families in particular?
‘(3) ASSURANCES- Assurances from the State that–
1
‘(A) in supporting home visitation programs using funds provided under this section, the State shall identify and prioritize serving communities that are in high need of such services, especially communities with a high proportion of low-income families or a high incidence of child maltreatment;
So I responded to Wingy:
look, my last job was in a human services agency that dealt extensively with domestic violence. THAT is what this is about: preventing violence against children from abusive parents or parents who don’t know how to fill that role, like with the little girl here in philly with cerebral palsy whose mother starved her to death while DHS did nothing.
also, it sounds like this is funding that the individual states have to apply for, see 440, subsec. b.
sorry Wingy, but i think you’re misinformed: this is about child-well-being, not usurping parental rights (except perhaps the rights of parents to abuse their kids).
Section 440 is meant to prevent stuff like this from happening.
Wingy was having none of it: who cares for facts when Chuck Norris is telling you what to think? here’s Wingy:
Doesn’t the government have agencies that deal with abuse? This has nothing to do with abuse. We have laws that deal with that and anything else that infringes upon the right of an individual to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That is where the government’s involvement should end. .. by enforcing the laws and protecting rights.
Why is this in a health care bill? If the government had done a poor job already, do you really think this is going to help? More government intervention into our lives? Should we be turning to the government to tell us how to be good parents? Isn’t that what family and communities are for?
And how are they going to identify these communities in “need”? By income? Poor school performance? They government has failed our kids through the public education system already…. Read More
How are they going to “teach” parenting? Whose guidelines are they going to use to say who needs “education”?
These are questions that deserve to be raised.
“This has nothing to do with abuse?” How can anyone read the text of this section of the bill and arrive at that conclusion? IT’S STATED IN PLAIN ENGLISH. And my God, the ignorance of how government functions is astounding. So, futilely, I responded again:
This has EVERYTHING to do with child abuse and it says so right in the subsection.
This is about providing money to states so they can better protect children from abuse.
And if you don’t see why child abuse prevention belongs in a health care bill, then you probably need to educate yourself on the impact of abuse on children: it’s a public health issue.
Ahem. And ahem again. and another 18,500,000 ahems on top of that. but I digress:
And no, Wingy, people do not always know how to be good parents. Come to Philadelphia sometime and watch the startling number of parents who punch their children in the face (in public! no shame!) Child abuse is transmitted intergenerationally: people who were abused as children tend to abuse their own children, and so on. that’s why it’s called a “cycle of violence” in the field.
Communites in need are id’ed in a variety of ways: police reports, reports from school nurses, social workers, and DHS. All states track this kind of stuff via databases and reports from professionals, which are mandated. So it’s easy enough to see where the problems are.
And what they are teaching these parents is stuff like anger management, communication, problem resolution, patience, the difference between corporal punishment and abuse, and that kind of thing…
But no one is usurping anything: the word “voluntary” should clue you into that. “The purpose of this section is to improve the well-being, health, and development of children by enabling the establishment and expansion of high quality programs providing voluntary home visitation for families with young children and families expecting children.”
i understand your mistrust of government expansion (i get the same break the matrix videos too), but if this bill expands services to families and prevents child abuse, i support it 100%.
but what are facts anyway? They’re just opinions like anything else. You say the sky is blue, I say it’s plaid. Who’s to say who’s right? THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GIVE EQUAL TIME TO LIARS: STUPID PEOPLE GET THE IDEA THEIR WRONGHEADED, BASELESS FALSEHOODS ARE ENTITLED TO CONSIDERATION And so Wingy continues:
I simply do not agree with your premise that it is the governments business to dictate to families how best to parent their children.
If the law is broken (in the case of abuse), then it is the government’s role to protect that individuals rights. But that is as far as they go. Bad things happen, and there are people out there that make poor decisions. But if they harm another and infringe on upon an individual’s rights, that is where the law (government) steps in and deals with the situation.
It is up to families and communities, not the government, to parent and teach people to be responsible as individuals.
You see, this is the problem when you accept the premise of allowing government intrusion into personal matters. You have already accepted that it is the governments place to do so. I have not.
The language is as clear as can be: no one is dictating anything; participation is voluntary; it’s nopt about telling people how to parent, it’s about preventing child abuse. But Wingy either cannot or will not believe this: like Linus with his security blanket, Wingy is comforted by the lies Chuck Norris told her, and even when someone who’s worked in the field provides her with the facts, she can’t let go.
And this is why, as a nation, we are doomed: you cannot sow that kind of stupidity, which will be passed down to Wingy’s children, and their children, without reaping a mass of people who are not only ignorant, but PROUD of their ignorance.
So I gave up: the stupid bitch is going to believe what she wants to believe.
Meanwhile I am growing more and more comfortable with the idea of giving these clowns an opt-out from national health care. If i were Obama, I would say “you don’t want to participate. Fine: you may opt out, and reduce your tax burden accordingly. But the consequences are this: if your private insurance denies coverage or rescinds your policy or raises your premiums so high you can’t pay, you may not receive services at a taxpayer-funded provider until you opt back in. And you will be required to wait one-year before you can opt back in.” That should cull the herd quite nicely, as 22,000 Americans die every year because they lack health coverage.
For that matter, maybe we should just cede the idiots a flyover state and let them try their libertarian paradise experiment. The US should provide a state with a decent water supply and arable land, but should take back all the infrastructure (because libertarians have no need of government services). If they want clean water they can have it trucked in by private companies (how they intend to pay for it without US currency is their problem). How they defend themselves is also their problem, since we’ll be taking back US military installations and nuclear missiles. How they keep their homes warm is also their problem, since the US is under no obligation to provide oil or natural gas services to foreign countries. For that matter, how they build their homes will also be their problem.
The way I see it, within a year the survivors, what few remain, will be begging to come back home.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
It’s some sort of logical inversion disorder. Normal debating consists of treating a fact as immutable/having just 1 interpretation. Conclusions drawn from the fact can vary, these are opinions.
It’s almost like they think “facts” have multiple interpretations and “opinions” are unique, so their point is to “interpret” the fact to align with the conclusion.
As an ex-math teacher, I shudder and see these people making the answer to every problem “5″ and treating the work to get their as obviously justified. These are the people who would have wandering eves and just give answers with no work in Calc and fume that I would give 9/10 points for a “wrong” answer with near perfect work but one brainfarty arithmatic error, but give 0/10 to their “right” answer in a vacuum
Of course, as a Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe fan, I’d probably bust a gut with someone answering every problem with “42″…
August 12th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
[...] My five-year old son has more intellectual curiosity than a 20-something year old woman. That’ click for more var _wh = ((document.location.protocol==’https:’) ? “https://sec1.woopra.com” : [...]
August 12th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
[...] yesterday on facebook, i had a hilarious, but ultimately sad and frustrating, exchange with a wingnut on health care reform. It was hilarious because wingnuts are SO FUCKING DUMB. It was sad and frustrating for the same reason. Even when the facts were spelled out in giant block letters with crayon, the wingnut could not bring herself to believe anything other than what she had told herself was true. My five-year old son has more intellectual curiosity than a 20-something year old woman. That’s pathRead more at http://brendancalling.com/2009/08/12/emails-with-a-wingnut/ [...]
August 13th, 2009 at 10:30 am
[...] man, this is a hoot. [...]
August 14th, 2009 at 10:55 am
I feel your pain. Oooooooh I feel your pain. It’s like talking to a box of rocks.